Curse

Celes Tial · Jul 22, 2005, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aphalite

Great job, you've finally gotten the point of this post

Now, you might not admit this, but indirectly you just said that the 3 most useful classes are mesmers, monks, and elementalists, I'd put ranger in there too, now look back at the thread topic, and you will see where I am going with this

necro is good, but it's overlooked because it's not as good/useful

Finally? I only read your post once, how could I 'finally' have gotten the point of it?

Nope, I said no such thing. If you read my post again, you might note that my question at the end was sarcastic, ended by a 'No, I dont think so'. I'm not sure how anyone could interprete this as indirectly stating those 3 are the only useful classes, if I specifically said no at the end.

You are contradicting yourself... you say necros are good, but they are overlooked because they are not so good?

Aphalite · Jul 22, 2005, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Do you understand what relative comparisons are?

Also, what was the point of your last sentence? You understood what I meant yet you still can't help but nitpick. I don't think you any wittier for making that comment

Anyway, this debate should be closed, all points have been covered and those who listened have already stopped visitng

Celes Tial · Jul 22, 2005, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Celes, two thinks really irk me about your post, and in the posts of others throughout this thread.

I did not mean to irk you, or Eonwe. Maybe there were some misunderstandings, I am not a native english speaker, and I have an annoying habit of adressing the generality of posters with a certain attitude while writing a reply to someone ELSE. Lets give this a shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

There isn't a single person in iQ who has said putrid explosion is a bad spell. It's thoroughly frustrating to have stated this on page two of the thread, only to have people claim it is part of their secret strategy later on, as if they are master strategiests with necros.

Putrid is certainly no 'secret strategy'. I first mentioned the fact that primary necros can cause an immense death spam for no net energy cost for all the posters in this thread who did not seem to have much of a clue (this definitely did not include you iQ people). I brought it up again after Eonwe's comment of how my strategy was 'wanding people to death'. That provoked me to reply to not give other readers of the thread a wrong impression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Your insinuation that we're dismissive of necromancers "(but why would they run putrid...necros suck, right?)" is insulting to anyone who's bothered to read this thread and put thought into expressing their reasoning for why necromancers shouldn't be played outside of a specific set of circumstances.

The 'necros suck' part was not directed at your guild, but rather at the generality of 'OMFG NECROZ SUCK!!1!!1' people. I am sorry you felt this was directed at Idiot Savants. The second part was directed at Eonwe, because of his 'why was your death magic not 16, you silly goose' comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

This should have no impact whatsoever on the discussion at hand, yet people keep insisting on strategies that beat lesser players. When we're discussing (or trying to discuss) high level competetive play, arguments like "we don't fight a lot of good teams, but it works against them" will get you laughed out of the room.

We are writing from different standpoints here. Your guild naturally gets matched against good teams more often than mine - though this is an assumption, as I am not sure how often you bothered doing GvG and I am too lazy to check the ladder. As for Tombs, you go with a full team of experienced players who know their role well, and I assume you cut through the bad teams on the first maps quickly, and then get matched against a near-equally skilled group on the last map or in the HoH if you are lucky.

Now, my guild has a good number of players who are all decent people, but many are fairly new to PvP and their role in it. For us, a successful Tombs run means winning 3 maps mostly flawless and then being slaughtered by a top ranked guild on one of the last maps. We do win against good groups regularly, and rarely against world top groups, but mostly the world top are no concern to us because we hardly meet them anyway.

Different people have different definitions of a successful run.

The Red Knight · Jul 22, 2005, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Necros are ownage its the dumb w/mo that are like WOW LOOK A NECRO NEWB I BET I CAN KILL HIM IN ONE HIT =/

Thanas · Jul 22, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksci

Personally i'd only accept a necromancer in the group if they had "Well of power", that skill really shines, the energy gain really helps any magic user. I'd accept a nuker over a necro for that skill.

Other than that, if they don't have that skill, then for the healing i'd either get lina or alesia.

What a ridiculous comment. Heard of curses? I have a n/me which is a great support. I use, illusion, inspiration and curses. I have mana steal which regens life and energy. I also have the ability to degen 8 using phantasm and phantom pain. I also have enfeebling blood and shadow of fear, Which slows and weakens the enemy team. I also have mantra of persistence to increase the length of my illusion magic spells as well as the elite spell fevered dreams.

My usual setup consists of putting mantra of persistnce on which last for over a minute, then hitting the enemy with shadow of fear, to slow and then enfeebling blod to weaken when they evntually attack. I then target the called player and put phantasm and phantom pain on. This give that player degen of 8. I then put my elite on. When phantom pain ends the player suffers with deep wound. However my elite transfers this to all surrounding players. This gives -20% to max health. So now we have a party which is slow, weak and has -20% health. I then drain mana and health and then repeat and add my mantra of persistence as neeeded to keep deep wound length increased. Since everyone ussually attacks monks first, increasing my mana and life, decreases their mana reducing healing capability. And since I'm a necro I'm ussually ignored. Which is great!

So think before you decide not to add a necro. I'm personally sick and tired of being asked "Do you have well of blood or putrid? No, OK then, bye!" Its ridiculous. They don't even bother to ask what I do have. Its seems players are only interested in direct damage and have no idea what hexes etc can do.

Odd Sock · Jul 22, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

Don't say the class sucks if u just #1 dont #2 want #3 or are good at playing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

Dont know about u but Warriors are a waste of space miss half the time against any decent team

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Red Knight

Necros are ownage its the dumb w/mo that are like WOW LOOK A NECRO NEWB I BET I CAN KILL HIM IN ONE HIT =/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

I also have the ability to degen 8 using phantasm and phantom pain

These comments are enough to stop me from posting in this thread.

I can resume this situation quite simply: there's people who know their shit and others that defend their dumb points with the most retarded arguments. If you've been beat with an argument just STFU, you lost get over it. There's so many things posted in this thread that would make any sane person not play a necro unless very specifically needed yet people defend them with a passion like it was a personnal attack. Guess what ? The past two months you could have played something more efficient, now get over it and fix the problem: make necro a secondary.

Luggage · Jul 22, 2005, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

Oh please, I am sorry you had to sacrifice saying anything constructive so you could have your little pitch here. I Created an entire line that works using only necro skills. That is why prim necro instead of a mesmer there smart man. If the majority of your skills are necro, go with necro primary, if they are mesmer than go mesmer. Don't be retarted.

You play single class characters and call me retarded?

If you need a necro attribute over 12 - play necro prim.
If you think SR will benefit your build more than any other prim attribute - play necro prim.

But "I have lots of necro skills on my bar" is not really a good reason, and if you can't find a skill from any other proffesion to synergize better with your most important 4-6 necro skills... uhm, look harder. (barring very special cases)

sino-soviet · Jul 22, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Red Knight

Necros are ownage its the dumb w/mo that are like WOW LOOK A NECRO NEWB I BET I CAN KILL HIM IN ONE HIT =/

This folks, is a prime example of an idiot who believes that anyone who uses a warrior/monk is automatically a bad player. You try to destroy stereotypes about necros (without absolutely no argument at all) , yet you insult based solely on the ever so stereotypic “noob wa/mo”. Classic. Also, terrific job of attempting to sound like an informed player. I am sorry, but being so hypocritical and resorting to attacking someone’s so called “noob” class is making you just as stupid as the “noobs” who you are attempting to insult. Way to go to be a non-conformist. And this is all coming from someone who believes that necros with less life are better. Please, don’t try to dismiss stereotypes by creating them at the same time.

To Celes Tial:

I agree with what Ensign said about Necros being usually as effective as a secondary, and how necros are hard to work into a team. There is no argument there. Since you agree with Ensign to some degreee, as do I, there is no issue. So at least something has been resolved.

Now lets talk about soul reaping vs. energy storage.

When you are getting thrashed by the other team, or are thrashing, soul reaping kicks in to maximum effect at a much higher rate than you can use the energy. But the problem therein lies the fact that if TOO many things are dying, you're not gaining energy after you hit max... With soul reaping at 10, you need a couple things dying over a long period of time in order to get it's full usefulness. Which doesn't happen. Either everything dies too rapidly, or too slow. Meanwhile ES gives you energy to use fresh off the bat, 33 in most cases. With that 33 + 50 or so energy, you can cast away and deal some serious damage before having to regenerate. In most ocassions, I'd expect you'd want energy to use to gain some sort of advantage rather than wait until the momentum has been established. Since I believe in energy storage being an overall better primary attribute, I like ES more. 'Tis all.

Ensign · Jul 22, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

The longer cast time may be a bit debilitating but is hardly reason to think that any curse is not worth using.

Of course not. A hex simply has to justify its place even under Nature's Renewal, because that's simply the reality of the game these days. I'm not saying that these hexes have no use whatsoever if they're on your bar when Nature's Renewal goes up. I'm saying that, knowing that Nature's Renewal is going to go up, you have to seriously question whether you want to have those skills on your bar, as opposed to comparable skills that are not hosed by Nature's Renewal.

Again, I'm not looking at any of this through the lens of 'is my Necromancer useful', but 'is a Necromancer the right character for this team'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

There are plenty of skills worth using through the big cast time, you just choose to try and believe they don't exis

I don't have to try and believe they don't exist because I've gone through the lists several times, looked at each hex individually, and concluded that they're not worth a four second cast time.

Or let me turn this one around - what Necromancer hex is worth a four second cast time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

Cover hexes are popular for me, and hex removals have cooldown too.

Of course removal has a cooldown, but you have to take cooldown ratios into account when choosing what hexes to run. Something like Defile Flesh, Faintheartedness, or Shadow of Fear recycles more quickly than most hex removal, which lets you simply overpower the removal and make your hexes stick. On the other hand, hexes like Barbs or Mark of Pain have slow recharges and simply get walked all over by hex removal.

My gripe with cover hexes for Necromancers is the same as for Mesmers - there just aren't many options that are worth running in their own right at all. The best option available is Faintheartedness, which makes sense if you have some hex that you want to make stick on one of their Rangers or Warriors. If, for whatever reason, you want to hex stack out a physical attacker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

You honestly make it sound like as soon as a hex is on every player on your team is working to get it off, because every single person has a hex removal right there and instant reaction time to a little pink arrow pointing down.

Not working. Salivating at the opportunity to. Hexes aren't all that common these days, you know, and Monks are often waiting for a hex to hit so they can Inspire it and grab the quick energy boost. In the past we would have run copies of Convert Hexes to deal with hex stacking, but that's simply unneccessary with Nature's Renewal everywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

Rigor mortis isn't a single target removal. It is good to toss on if rend is on the cooldown and guardian and aegis keep coming up in a heated moment.

I thought that Rigor Mortis was a mildly interesting hex to use back in the days of buff stacking, mostly because it's not a hex that has to stick to be effective. Now, between a four second cast time, the relative power of removal, and the diminished role of protective enchantments I don't think it's worth the effort. This is one of the hexes that I've considered running on a Mesmer / Necro to power through, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

poisoning yourself, coughing up 25 energy, and not being able to do it on a defined target is much better than rending

Poison lasts for 3 seconds, and you do hit the defined target because it's a PBAoE with a fairly large radius. You hit all the targets nearby, as well.

I never said that Chilblains was better than Rend, merely that those two were your strong options. You used them differently, too - Rend was to punch through buff stacked targets by ripping off everything, while Chilblains rips up Life Bond chains through its AoE. I don't think either is particularly valuable now, since those circumstances rarely exist, and when they do I'd rather just throw a Nature's Renewal in their face.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

Lingering curse is pretty good too, depending on your build and if your feeling that as an elite. It also takes off all enchantments and has way less cooldown.

It was ok - the energy cost on that skill is ridiculous. But the effect was pretty strong when combined with a spike. Now? Six second cast time = gg. Plus there's nothing to Lingering off of a target anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

Barbs is a pretty good way to increase damage per swing isn't it? It sticks pretty long too...

30 second cooldown, mediocre damage increase, requires a specialized team build, plays very poorly with target switching and other tactics, has to stick to be effective, destroyed by Nature's Renewal.

Barbs is terrible, one of the half dozen or so skills in the Curse line that I consider completely unplayable in any serious capacity. Maybe in a PvE minionator build or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

Exaggeration in tombs to say the least.

Exaggeration my ass. Every good team in tombs runs Putrid Explosion, because if you don't you are going to get destroyed by it on every dias map, including the Hall of Heroes. Good Necros are mashing on the Putrid button even before a target dies - if a corpse has not exploded before it hits the ground, you either have a Necro who's slacking off, or multiple targets dying at once so you can't Putrid them fast enough.

If you're running corpse exploitation skills outside of obscure combos (like bipping your own guys to death and making a big pile of minions) you're not only conceding the Putrid war, but you're putting dead skills on your bar as well. Because you're not going to beat a button mashing Putrid Necro with a 2-3 second cast time Well or Minion.

Putrid Explosion is right up there with Fertile Season on my list of complaints about tombs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

Not really, don't act like the time is more devestating than it is. I have pushed through it quite well time and time again.

Do you want a medal for being stubborn? Why are you insisting on running headfirst into Nature's Renewal and trying to force decent but unspectacular two second cast time hexes when there are strategies that are just as effective that don't get hammered? Four second cast times on skills that either need to be spammed, or be clutch, is devastating. You're better off using Wards or Stances or Skills or Rituals or any of the options that were comparable before Nature's Renewal and are simply better now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

Although I disagree with you on how many useful curses there are

I think, more than that, that you disagree with how hard your character gets hit by Nature's Renewal. Before that skill got fixed I thought there were a lot of decent if unremarkable hexes in the Curses line. I even gave consideration to skills like Mark of Pain that were borderline junk but had uses in the right circumstances. But with Nature's Renewal? Curses is a line of playables, not stars. Star hexes I'll find a way to power through NR anyway, but in the absence of those I'm looking at the alternatives. That means I'm grabbing Defile Flesh and Rend Enchantments, and leaving everything else in the back of my mind for an age when I can use them without NR around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinger

I just don't like them being dismissed as useless, that is just not true.

Which I never did. I did say that Curses based Necros were destroyed by Nature's Renewal, which I stick by. Water Elementalists (and Elementalists in general), a huge chunk of the Mesmer line, and Protection Monks were devastated as well. It's unfortunate but it's just the reality we have to deal with.

People are dismissing Necros as useless? Whatever. Two months ago everyone was dismissing Rangers as useless, last month was Warriors are useless Month. Next Month we get to see Elementalists are useless threads because we're in the age of smiting for our AoE and spike needs. Don't let it get to you.

Peace,
-CxE

lord_shar · Jul 22, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

...<SNIP>...

Now lets talk about soul reaping vs. energy storage.

When you are getting thrashed by the other team, or are thrashing, soul reaping kicks in to maximum effect at a much higher rate than you can use the energy. But the problem therein lies the fact that if TOO many things are dying, you're not gaining energy after you hit max... With soul reaping at 10, you need a couple things dying over a long period of time in order to get it's full usefulness. Which doesn't happen. Either everything dies too rapidly, or too slow.

I hate to say this, but the last sentence "Either everything dies too rapidly, or too slow" is pure conjecture. There's no way to accurately predict combat death rate at any given moment, so it is unreasonable to claim that participant's won't die at semi-regular intervals during any given fight. Think of bell curve probabilities in statistics, and you'll get my point.

Death rate directly correlates to the total number of combat participants. Therefore, SR will scale upward in a similar manner. If I were to express ES vs. SR in equasions, it should look like this:

ES_Mana_Total = Base_Mana + (3 * Energy_Storage_Level) + (Mana_Recharge * Time)

SR_Mana_Total = Base_Mana + (Mana_Recharge * Time) + (Deaths * Soul_Reaping_Level)

The only variables in the above are Deaths and Time -- all others are constants. Also, Deaths will rise as Time goes up. Therefore, although the 2nd equasion has an initial lower start value, it will rise faster than the 1st as Time -> infinity. Assuming Mana recharge is 4, the 1st equasion's slope is constant at 4, while the 2nd one is 4 + |x|, where x > 0.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

Meanwhile ES gives you energy to use fresh off the bat, 33 in most cases. With that 33 + 50 or so energy, you can cast away and deal some serious damage before having to regenerate. In most ocassions, I'd expect you'd want energy to use to gain some sort of advantage rather than wait until the momentum has been established. Since I believe in energy storage being an overall better primary attribute, I like ES more. 'Tis all.

I agree that ES is considerably better than SR for initial burst damage, but not sustained, given the equasions above. Therefore, it ES > SR for small fights, but not long-drawn large scale combat.

Please feel free to offer corrections to the above as needed...

Jul 22, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Take into account Max energy and spell costs on your bar for the complete picture. Even though SR will be a long term energy boost over non Ether Renewal/Ether Prodigy Energy Storage the use is nullified by when you get it. In other terms it doesnt matter how much SR gives you in the first place if you cant control it effectively. It's the reason why Soul Reaping works so well with Putrid Explosion, you spend little energy for a vicious effect on a map where you are guaranteed to get a kill from that Energy spent which makes Soul Reaping's actual mechanic useful: You chain deaths for momentum like a snowball effect. The thing is, this only works with few skills in very few places in PvP so it gets tossed away. Blood and Curse necros get more benefit out of Energy Storage and Fast Casting as majority of their skills will get better on a front loaded energy boost and not on a conditional energy boost that has too many negatives to be worth it.

Quote:

SR_Mana_Total = Base_Mana + (Mana_Recharge * Time) + (Deaths * Soul_Reaping_Level)

The only variables in the above are Deaths and Time -- all others are constants. Also, Deaths will rise as Time goes up.

Yes it will, but the rate at which death rises will be what you care for. It's inevitable that in a given match people will die, but when they die and how many die after the first death is what matters. If someone dies when I'm at 25/60 energy thats great, but if they die when I'm at 60/60 what does it matter in the context of Soul Reaping since I've gained nothing.

Now if I'm at 25/60 and the death cycle keeps repeating and I constantly trigger it for 5 energy(20/60) get back lets say 12 from Soul Reaping(32/60) and then spend another 5 energy for the next death Soul Reaping looks nice, but this situation is akin to Putrid and Minion builds for the most part.

The first equation for ES also assumes there is no Ether Prodigy or Ether Renewal being used since they both outdo Soul Reaping(even though EP is horrible)

Quote:

Therefore, although the 2nd equasion has an initial lower start value, it will rise faster than the 1st as Time -> infinity. Assuming Mana recharge is 4, the 1st equasion's slope is constant at 4, while the 2nd one is 4 + |x|, where x > 0.

One problem though, "Time -> infinity" hits a brick wall in Timed matches

And as said before it ignores Max Energy which skews the perception on how much energy you are really gaining.

PieXags · Jul 22, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

That's an opinion of yours Blackace, just because you can't choose when you'll get the energy boost doesn't mean it's useless. In fact I LIKE the fact that you don't choose when you get it, because then you don't have to waste skill bar slots that get you energy when you want it. And that's why I like it, it's my opinion, just like your statement "Even though SR will be a long term energy boost ... the use is nullified by when you get it," is an opinion. The use is nullified just because you get it sometimes while you have 20 energy and sometimes while you have 5 energy. From personal experience the only place SR is rather useless is in the arenas because battles there can take a while if you get locked between a few characters, but people won't be dieing around you. But in the tombs and in GvG, I've found it to be VERY useful, to the point that I was almost never, without a plentiful pool of mana to use. Just because you'd rather get energy with a skill when you want it, doesn't mean it's bad.

lord_shar · Jul 22, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Take into account Max energy and spell costs on your bar for the complete picture. Even though SR will be a long term energy boost over non Ether Renewal/Ether Prodigy Energy Storage the use is nullified by when you get it. In other terms it doesnt matter how much SR gives you in the first place if you cant control it effectively. It's the reason why Soul Reaping works so well with Putrid Explosion, you spend little energy for a vicious effect on a map where you are guaranteed to get a kill from that Energy spent which makes Soul Reaping's actual mechanic useful: You chain deaths for momentum like a snowball effect. The thing is, this only works with few skills in very few places in PvP so it gets tossed away. Blood and Curse necros get more benefit out of Energy Storage and Fast Casting as majority of their skills will get better on a front loaded energy boost and not on a conditional energy boost that has too many negatives to be worth it.

...<SNIP>...

The first equation for ES also assumes there is no Ether Prodigy or Ether Renewal being used since they both outdo Soul Reaping(even though EP is horrible)

Keep in mind that my last post was strictly a numeric analysis of Energy Storage vs. Soul Reaping as functions, nothing more, nothing less. I know other mana-generation skills are relevant in combat, but that's not what we're comparing here... we're only comparing ES vs SR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Yes it will, but the rate at which death rises will be what you care for. It's inevitable that in a given match people will die, but when they die and how many die after the first death is what matters. If someone dies when I'm at 25/60 energy thats great, but if they die when I'm at 60/60 what does it matter in the context of Soul Reaping since I've gained nothing.

Seriously, no caster should ever be sitting at full 60/60 during mid combat... if they are, then they definitely aren't casting fast enough, or have an insane mana recharge level

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

One problem though, "Time -> infinity" hits a brick wall in Timed matches

And as said before it ignores Max Energy which skews the perception on how much energy you are really gaining.

Time will never hit infinity, but using "->" to denote this is common practice in calc 101.

Fair enough?

Ensign · Jul 22, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

In fact I LIKE the fact that you don't choose when you get it, because then you don't have to waste skill bar slots that get you energy when you want it.

Is it just me or does this not make a lick of sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

just like your statement "Even though SR will be a long term energy boost ... the use is nullified by when you get it," is an opinion.

Actually, no, that's a matter of fact. Energy that you get at some later time is less valuable than energy up front. Reliable energy is more valuable than unreliable energy. That's cold mathematics, statistics, and game theory. Trying to argue with this just makes you look foolish.

What we can debate is how much more energy Soul Reaping will give you, and if the magnitude of the energy it gives you makes up for the unreliability and often bad timing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

From personal experience the only place SR is rather useless...

FFS. This debate was never about Soul Reaping being useless. It gives you energy at cost of attribute points. Of course that's useful. You're a blithering idiot if you make a primary Necromancer and don't put any points into Soul Reaping. The question is if Soul Reaping is as useful as *other primary attributes*. It's a question of if it's reliable enough energy to forgo other energy management solutions.

These threads would be so much less stupid if people stopped pretending that everything was some retarded black or white, godly or useless issue.

Peace,
-CxE

Jul 22, 2005, 10:41 PM // 22:41

I know what it was, I was just trying to point out that since you can never go over Max Energy that destroys some of the usefulness of that mechanic. If you could go over Max(whereas Sr would hold energy for you) then we'd be in a whole different ballpark.

lord_shar · Jul 22, 2005, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

...<SNIP>...
Energy that you get at some later time is less valuable than energy up front. Reliable energy is more valuable than unreliable energy. That's cold mathematics, statistics, and game theory. Trying to argue with this just makes you look foolish.

...<SNIP>...
What we can debate is how much more energy Soul Reaping will give you, and if the magnitude of the energy it gives you makes up for the unreliability and often bad timing.

This I completely agree with. Yes, SR can provide some pretty devastating chain kills, but don't count on it happening consistently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

FFS. This debate was never about Soul Reaping being useless. It gives you energy at cost of attribute points. Of course that's useful. You're a blithering idiot if you make a primary Necromancer and don't put any points into Soul Reaping. The question is if Soul Reaping is as useful as *other primary attributes*. It's a question of if it's reliable enough energy to forgo other energy management solutions.

These threads would be so much less stupid if people stopped pretending that everything was some retarded black or white, godly or useless issue.

Peace,
-CxE

Yep, this thread took a wrong tangent.

Nash · Jul 22, 2005, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

We really need an "iQ only + approved" forum...

Atleast a forum that bans all fanboys, idiots and smacktards. Then we can seriously discuss topics without sifting through a lot of dumb posts, misinformation and blind fanboyism.

Ollj · Jul 22, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55

another pro argu:

Necro skills are high in costs and most have a short charge time, some even cost your health,
so sour necro is either low on energy in general OR it can decide any time to go low on energy while damaging a lot.

If annything dies next to you and you are full of energy something is wrong with you!!
This is why the soul reaping energy gain is really worth it.

Crispie · Jul 23, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

I just dont like to see Necro primarys in Arena. Most of the time, the other proffessions Primary Attribute is better when there is only 8 players total in the arena. But yes, Necros kick major butt, esp with Soul Reaping in tombs.

Lonk · Jul 23, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

I'm not sure how all of you are playing your necros, but my minion necro primary loved soul reaping, I consider soul reaping to be a great attribute, that shines the most as a minion necro in the 8v8v8v8v8v8 match in tombs. And yes, the community does seem to underestimate necros, rangers, and mesmers from my experiances, both in pvp and pve.

My roleplay characters for example are ranger, necro, and mesmer primaries, yet it takes me a very long time to ever get a pickup group anywhere I go because people think these classes are nearly useless, they only want monks, nukers, and tanks.

I believe the problem is either these people had a few bad experiances with subpar necro players, or tried to be one and realized it's just not their style.
Same thing happened in the Diablo 2 days, tons of people considered necros to be completely useless.